Episode # 409: Patty McGee
https://outofthetrenches.podbean.com/e/episode-409-patty-mcgee/
Patty McGee is a nationally recognized literacy consultant, speaker, and educator with a passion for transforming classrooms into spaces where language and learning come alive. With decades of experience as a teacher, coach, and advocate for delightful literacy practices, Patty has worked alongside educators across the country, partnering to unlock the full potential of their students through innovative and practical teaching strategies. Not Your Granny’s Grammar is her third book.
Most teachers learned grammar through worksheets and are teaching it the same way—but it doesn’t work. It doesn’t transfer to real writing, frustrates students, and turns teachers into “grammar police.”
I’ve spent two decades helping schools shift to Grammar Study, a collaborative, inquiry-based approach that actually sticks. I’m the author of Not Your Granny’s Grammar and a 2002 Milken Award recipient.
Trenches story: will focus on grammar. In her early years back in 90’s. Instructional practices were improving, then got to obligatory grammar lesson. It was challenging for her. She didn’t know any other way to teach grammar than how she was taught. It has taken her a few decades to crawl out of that trench. She’s worked 3 decades to find out what’s missing in grammar instruction.
Why traditional grammar fails and what works instead. Why are students not taught grammar anymore? When you learn a 2nd language, you learn 1st language’s grammar. Teachers avoid grammar instruction because they don’t know it, etc. WS/memorization approach doesn’t work for kids. Can talk about how vulnerable about how kids are when they write in school. As t’s, we give the most fdb on how kids write. A small % of teachers have learned grammar in the traditional fashion. A lot of us are ashamed we don’t know it as well as colleagues. Therefore we avoid it altogether. Science of Reading gave phonics the front row seat. One of the threads in Scarborough’s rope is syntax. The most effective approach is sentence structure & combining.
She often looks at things that are outside the classroom. Experimenting, getting curious. They gave her feedback, she played around w/ ideas. Inquiry approach- start by getting curious.
How to move from correctness policing to mentor teaching: correction isn’t always teaching. does the student understand the reason? AI to correct assignments- there are helpful uses for AI. She uses it for ideas on how to create something she’s started w/. Grammar’s like a painter using a paintbrush.
How can teachers teach grammar when it’s not explicitly taught? ELA teacher can build grammar know-how over time. At the end of learning, we co-create tools for transfer. The document can be shared w/ content-area colleague. No Red Ink f.ex.- kids get frustrated b/c there’s a speed factor. It can instill shame when not knowing it correctly. A tiny dose is better than too much. Learning together w/ a group while interacting is better.
Practical Monday-morning strategies: Short nuggets of teaching. Sometimes instructional moves, sometimes resources, connect back to grammar concepts we’ve been studying. Her approach to grammar is to give kids grammar experiences 10 m. 3-4 x’s week. Content & grammar manipulatives: Master Any Content Through The Power of Grammar (1).pdf We could pick out one of the 3 activities. “Fragments no more”: we’ve already labelled the fragment. They can turn the fragment into a sentence by adding words in L or R column. You can use any content you want. Each has a different content focus.
Talk about your book Not Your Granny’s Grammar (6/25): not a read cover-to-cover it’s an intro on how to revise grammar instruction. Different chapt. of mix, match. Co-author has a grammar refresher- all the things we may not know about and are afraid to ask. He explains grammar in a way that’s accessible. She was part of a district where many t’s chose to read it this year. Look at how grammar was taught & compare to today’s teaching in ch. 1. They jumped to ch. 8. Ch. 2- setting up. Ch. 3- following it day by day. It’s been adjusted w/ t’s feedback. The remaining ch. are “choose your own adventure”. Also a chapter on transfer. Ch. on assessment- we find out how much kids are retaining & relearning. She has a matrix.
Speaking engagements: will be at LitCon early Feb (virtual), Plain Talk conference (NOLA in March), CTE, Keynote St. Mary’s College Virtual conference.
Out of everything: it’s not necessary to feel shame around not knowing grammar.
Where can ppl find you? Connect with Patty at www.pattymcgee.org LinkedIn & IG: @pmgmcgee
View this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Ddh6FtTTcR8
Episode # 410: Tim Shanahan
https://outofthetrenches.podbean.com/e/episode-210-tim-shanahan/
Tim Shanahan is distinguished professor emeritus at the University of Illinois at Chicago. He served as the director of reading for the Chicago Public Schools, is the former president of the International Literacy Association, and served on the advisory board of the National Institute for Literacy under Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama. In 2007, he was inducted into the Reading Hall of Fame & is a former first-grade teacher. He is the author of the recently published book Leveled Reading, Leveled Lives: How Students’ Reading Achievement Has Been Held Back and What We Can Do About It
Trench story: the biggest prof challenge was when he became the director of reading for the Chicago Public Schools, was hired late, charge was over 37K students. He found out quickly there was no staff, budget, spent the first wks coming up w/ plan to hire 100 ppl. Did the training himself- was 7 d/wk, 16 hr days. It all came from him. Geared up & got a lot. He was there a few yrs & raised achievement alot.
How literacy instruction has changed in the past 7-10 yrs? renewed interested in Sc of Reading & phonics instruction. After early 2000’s many schools had fallen away from that. No one monitors this really closely. Occasionally a natl. survey gives info. Major programs didn’t include phonics. It may look like a school isn’t doing it, even though the program teaches phonics. There’s more assessment & teaching of decoding ability. We’re still dealing w/ chronic absenteeism, also a lot from teachers- that’s the most immediate challenge.
Your work around Science of Reading- there’s been a lot of retirement, colleges of ed aren’t producing the # of teachers as prior. Districts are often suspending certification requirements. T’s need to know what students need by understanding techniques in science of reading certiifcaiton.
Discussion around his book-Teaching to levels students achieve on lexile score/ benchmark tests: theory used to be to teach kids at a certain level. In fact, we’re holding kids back. For 70 yrs, t’s have been encouraged to teach to their level. Recently, that’s been shown to not be the best idea. As you get up into secondary, teachers don’t get accurate data from benchmarks always. They should be reading harder texts to make more growth. We should give them grade level texts. Of 28K schools that serve population of kids who read below average, on 5% of them manage to catch kids up.Those schools didn’t try to teach at st’s level- it taught grade-level curriculum. T’s often don’t know how to work w/ kids who are struggling w/ texts. The supports haven’t been there from univ/district’s PD. The book deals w/ teaching kids grade-level.
MLLs acquiring reading-if they’re low enough, such as newcomers, have them read elementary texts (LEPs incl). If you look at research, all studies have been done K-12. They don’t have much evidence on K-2 readers using grade-level texts.Beginning readers need to learn decoding. Word repetition, repetition of decodable patterns. They need help building up reading in ELD class. You can read complex texts to them, don’t try to ramp up the difficulty. If a st who arrives is low in language, 70% of immigrants speak Spanish. They have a good way to decode. We don’t want to ramp difficult up if they don’t have concepts of English. One technique he used learning a L2 was to use 2 texts, 1 easy and 1 more at the level you want the reader to achieve. Language isn’t learned at a sequential level. For older students it gives them self-respect. They become more motivated that way. Text is one piece, instruction is another piece. T’s can facilitate kids using the home language as well. Allow them to discuss in their home language first what they discussed. It will help them make more sense- these are in the book.
Reading intervention classes at secondary level: in his experience in Chicago, those classes tend to be the same for everyone, and don’t work very well, incl. ones he’s overseen. It’s often taught by the least senior English teacher. Certain kids fall below certain threshold in decoding- their reading achievement doesn’t go up w/ reading classes. They don’t get much done during the class. When st’s were above that threshold, almost anything they did helped. Best is to identify the kids who will best benefit from reading intervention, make them more targeted. Do testing about why kids are low in reading, such as decoding ability, can they recognize morphological components. Often st’s who fall under that threshold don’t make gains in MS/HS. Don’t have to do 1-2nd grade level reading for MS/HS. It’s much more complex. If kids test above the threshold, there are programs that can help. Turn intervention programs into helping them handle texts in their general ed classes as well. It will help them get ahead in those classes to be able to fully participate. It must be a district commitment to determine who is above or below the cutpoint and give those below a different kind of intervention.
Out of everything: our tendency has been to protect our children. If we look at what happens in content classes, t’s often find an easier book like 2 grade levels or so behind. Teachers read the text to them. Then st’s won’t do the reading themselves. In content classes, they give up on textbooks. Teachers will tell them what is on the test. Then sometimes they ignore the problem. These approaches don’t make kids independent readers. We want them to get info through their own reading efforts.They aren’t taught how to surmount the problem. We can get levels of literacy we never dreamed of this way.
Where can ppl find you? Literacy Education | Shanahan on Literacy blogs w/ teachers’ comments.
on FB, X, Linkedin, Bluesky @shanahanonliteracy he has free resources on website, some is for secondary
View this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/91kqP9AXr7w
Episode # 411: Dr. Robb Kelly
https://outofthetrenches.podbean.com/e/episode-411-dr-robb-kelly/
Dr. Robb Kelly is always paying off students’ lunch debt and is the founder of The Robb Kelly Foundation- where no child is left behind in the middle of their parents’ and caretakers’ addiction and trauma.
Dr. Robb has an amazing story of how he successfully overcome addiction and helps others reach their potential. We work with our patients to improve their optimal performance by using Brain Spotting and other neuroscience coaching evidence based approaches.
Dr. Robb provides mentorship and guidance to aspiring entrepreneurs. He invests & encourages others to invest in startup ventures. He devotes countless hours sharing his expertise through conferences and workshops, utilizing others who’ve also overcome the challenges associated with lifestyle changes, habit formation, childhood traumas, startup obstacles, etc. He has created educational programs on business fundamentals. He also fosters a culture of innovation and responsible risk-taking.
Dr. Robb participated in the Entrepreneur Conference with Ken Joslin in Atlanta, Georgia as a speaker alongside Gary Brecka, John Maxwell, Ed Mylett and other amazing people.
He is a renowned Addiction Expert. Born and raised in Manchester, UK, who is eccentric, successful, and places his patients first. Robb is Meadows Trained in Trauma and holds a double Ph.D. It is necessary for the family to work along with the patient- we uncover the family chaos and dynamics to better resolve addiction.
Trench story: back in the UK, around late 20’s, he lost everything, slept in shelters. He had a spiritual awakening. Got off the streets, started researching the brain. He has an amazing life now.
Education, double Ph.D? #1-psychology #2- behavioral science- that was online. He was sent to the zoo for a year & watched primates. What he learned on the streets was like a Harvard education.
How you got started working with addiction/trauma? He was very angry at doctors when he first got off the street b/c he couldn’t stop drinking. Dove into what was known about the brain. Was a musician. Mostly worked in the community as a concierge doctor. They have offices around the world. He consults w/ schools/district on behavior, anxiety, depression, psycho, PTSD. ADHD, etc. His org has a 98% success rate.
Daddy, daddy Please stop drinking- book already published, it’s his life story about what his daughter experienced. Can talk about new book (title TBD), is about neuroscience and behavior. It’s about how we achieve anything we want to in the world. He encourages ppl to stop living in the past. You can do anything you want to do.
Robb Kelly Foundation: works w/ ppl from 12 up. Deals w/ depression, anxiety, alcoholism. Tell me about how it got started, who it serves. 501C3. Started non profit Nov. ‘25. Have found over the years that he realizes ppl are hungry, homeless, etc. They load a car & take food to the homeless. They provide for those who are underprivileged. They will pay off lunch debt for st’s 8-12 Can give examples of school districts he’s worked with. Started a British restaurant 2 yrs ago.
Can talk about how to work w/ parents & the school in getting children evaluated for ADHD, especially w/ the poverty. What they found in the studies is that no one really tests for this. No one micro-manages the truancy. Qu was why they are missing from school. A lot was behavioral, which starts at home. Could be enmeshment, passing down of PTSD, etc. “Monkey see, monkey do”. Everything’s in patterns. Neuropathways die every day. You change the way you do things. It’s about finding the key to growth, the ripple effect is phenomenal.
Out of everything: nobody’s watching- you can do what you want to do. Speak to people who got rejected many times. Neuroplasticity will help you change the way you think, talk. You can live your best life!
Where can ppl find you? https://www.therobbkellyfoundation.org/
View this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/jYetOl_FuR0
Episode # 412: Craig Randall
https://outofthetrenches.podbean.com/e/episode-412-craig-randall/
Repeat guest Craig Randall is the developer and author of Trust-Based Observations, an Amazon number one best seller in five countries. Craig has spent the last 30 plus years in education working as a counselor, coach, teacher, and principal.
Craig spends the majority of his time training school leaders in Trust-Based Observations (TBO), building mastery, and transforming the world of teacher observations to a model of trust and support that fosters growth mindsets, cultures of trust, and creates collective teacher efficacy in action.
In addition, Craig speaks at conferences, is working on a new book, and hosts the 20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance (On the Road with Trust-Based Observations) podcast, where he and some of the amazing teachers he observes engage in meaningful dialog about what makes for good teaching and learning. He was on episode #58 in 2020: “Out of the Trenches” podcast episode #58: Craig Randall
trench story: it’s more helping leader grow, he’s not seeing it in the exact same way as a principal. Even tho if you do what you’ve been doing past 25 yrs, breaking out of what’s familiar can be challenging. There is a level of skepticism at the beginning. Trust takes time. If we ask too soon, trust isn’t there. He was in Wales working w/ a school & a principal woke up remembering “playing the long game”. It’s best to go from a strengths-based focus. It flips ½ way thru the week. Teacher’s reactions are so different w/ this approach. It feels so good for t’s to hear. “Tears of joy”. They already think of what to get better at.
Talk about TBO and how your consultancy has grown in the past 5 yrs since you were last on the podcast, despite what rubric they may use. He’s put the TBO into action. 1 wk mastery training. Observations, then reflective conversations. Building turns into a culture of trust. In terms of teacher rubric, it’s complicated. He gets more work w/ charter, independent, private schools. Veteran t’s have comprehensive eval in private schools every 3-5 yrs.
What are gains you are seeing in schools w/ Trust-Based Observations? it’s ok if what you’re trying is a disaster. You can say you love someone’s trying something new. It takes a while to get data, a district in CA had TBO training including a California district with a 7.25% boost in Math and nearly 13% in ELA. Ppl want to stay @ the schools.
(from book): TBO is a framework I developed out of those same trenches, designed specifically to transform teacher observations from a source of anxiety into a catalyst for growth and teacher retention. We’ve seen double digit test score gains in schools using this model, Most importantly, we create real trust where teachers feel safe experimenting, even if a lesson doesn’t land perfectly, knowing they’ll be championed for taking risks that help students. The reflective conversations after observations have teachers leading their own growth, and principals see genuine school-wide improvement without the burden of compliance checklists.
How quickly should you have the reflective conversations w/ staff? do 12 a week, meet same t’s once every 3-4 wks. It’s 20 m. unannounced. The convos are the next day. Convos have to happen w/ regularity in order to build the trust.
How to prioritize getting into cr more or having teacher leaders do these? #1 job is to improve teaching & learning. The best path is via TBO, The PD doesn’t. Have things taken off your plate. Do an honest analysis of your schedule. What can your admin asst. take on? The best is when you see & learn from these interactions. PD needs to be done via in-house experts. Give t’s a choice what they want to work on. Change the way they do PLCs, if we don’t grow our t’s skills, it won’t result in changes. It should all be connected w/ thought of improving teaching & learning.
podcast 20 Minutes of Teaching Brilliance (On the Road with Trust-Based Observations), when it got started, what the goal is, release frequency? At a school in the UK, kids were doing math problems w/ whiteboards. She asked them to tell her how they failed. The ethos of the school became Failure is Opportunity. Seasons start late fall, early winter, 15-20 weeks. They’ll go over what happened that day to help other t’s learn.
New book, when it is expected, same title w/ different subtitle: Volume 2, probably by the end of ‘26. 4 book cycles, coaching, TB leaders for other leaders. It’s what he’s learned on the road. F.ex. cognitive load/working memory. 8 main ways t’s help st’s learn, he should label what each activity is. You can timestamp observation.
out of everything: He’s here to listen. If you’re feeling frustrated about observations, reach out.
Where can ppl find you: @trustbasedcraig
@trustbasedcraig on all socials
FB: Facebook
Website: trustbased.com
iew this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/HGY1OFJzrPs